On Wednesday, July 10, Plaza Abaroa, one of the main squares in La Paz, the seat of the Bolivian government, woke up crowded and divided.
On the one hand, the “evistas” sang songs in favor of the former president Evo Moraleswho had arrived at the Supreme Electoral Tribunal a few minutes earlier, in front of the place.
On the other side were the “arcists”, supporters of the incumbent president, Luis Arcewho were shouting against their counterpart. At one point, the verbal attacks turned into stone throwing, forcing police intervention.
A few years ago, this scene would have been unthinkable. After all, Arce was Morales’ Minister of Economy between 2006 and 2019. In 2020, Arce became president with Morales’ support. However, the alliance ended in 2021. The reason for the breakup is Morales’ new attempt to reach that position.
Evo Morales is the main leader of the left in Bolivia and one of the most recognizable names in South American politics. An indigenous leader and coca grower, he was elected president in 2005 and was re-elected twice.
And it was precisely his last re-election, in 2019, that led the country to a political crisis that forced him to resign and go into political exile in Argentina.
At the heart of the crisis was the controversial judicial maneuver that allowed him to try to be re-elected for a third term.
And the scenario continues to present challenges. In 2023, The Plurinational Constitutional Court of Bolivia decided that it is not possible to serve more than two presidential terms, whether continuously or discontinuously.
Part of the country’s public opinion believes that the decision prevents Morales from contesting a new election.
However, Morales rejects this theory: he says that he is technically qualified and that he will fight for his right to be a candidate again.
But even if he wins a future lawsuit to that end, he will have to overcome another opponent: Luis Arce, whom he calls by his nickname, Lucho.
Although Arce has not made explicit his intentions to run for reelection, the current president has criticized Morales’ attempt to seek a new mandate.
It is in the midst of this tense scenario that former President Evo Morales grants a Exclusive interview with BBC Brazil and BBC Worldat the MAS headquarters in La Paz.
Morales casts doubt on the version given by the Bolivian government that the country was the victim of an attempted coup on June 26. That day, soldiers tried to invade the government headquarters, but were stopped and arrested.
For Morales, it would all be nothing more than a “self-coup.” “If it is not a coup or a self-coup, it is a well-staged show”he says. The former president criticizes Arce’s performance in the presidency and accuses him of “electoralizing” the country and trying to push it to the right.
“Lucho turned right”he says. Moreover, according to him, the current president would no longer be an asset to the Bolivian left. “Luis Arce is an addition that subtracts,” he adds.
The former president also says he is willing to contest the primary elections with Arce so that the MAS can decide who will be the party’s candidate. He also assures that he will have popular support to return to the highest office in the country.
“Knowing my people, they will fight hard to recover the revolution and save our beloved Bolivia”he says.
Bolivia’s Plurinational Constitutional Court ruled last year that one cannot have more than two presidential terms. Still, you want to run again. Why?
The constitutional ruling of December 29th of last year comments on the issue of indefinite and discontinuous elections in the consideration section. The amparo action was for freedom of expression and not for electoral qualification or disqualification. Therefore, in the resolution section it says nothing.
According to the Constitution, it is stated: one election and one re-election. Indefinite elections are not in the Constitution, but discontinuous elections are.
We are basing ourselves on the advisory opinion of the International Court of Human Rights, which clearly speaks about indefinite elections, but not about discontinuous elections.
That is to say, Evo Morales, at a national and international level, is qualified as a presidential candidate.
But experts and President Luis Arce himself say that his political status does not allow him to run for office and that his candidacy would be an element of political instability in Bolivia. How do you respond to those who say that your political performance is an element of political instability?
First, let’s talk legally, constitutionally. I am showing that constitutionally Evo is authorized. I repeat: one election and one re-election, but discontinuous elections are not prohibited.
Now, opinion is another thing, but the people decide. In 2005 we won the elections (…). Of course there are so-called right-wing political analysts who speak and comment.
I respect this. This is nothing new. During the neoliberal times, they said that Evo was a drug trafficker, Evo was a murderer, Evo was a terrorist. Trials, trials. Even with that campaign, we won. Now history repeats itself.
Are you not afraid that this political instability could lead Bolivia to the same situation as in 2019?
I am much stronger. Even some of those who were in the coup (referring to his resignation in 2019), some of them on the right, are now looking for me, repentant.
They say: “Evo, when you were president, you told us to do this and not that. And wherever you said we would invest and make money. Now we are financially committed.”
“It was a well-staged show”
Regarding June 26, President Luis Arce said there was an attempted coup, but you have said it was possibly a self-coup. What evidence do you have to support this accusation?
On June 26, at 11 a.m., some military friends called me saying that they were being quartered. I told them: send me the circulars. Ten or fifteen minutes passed and they told me that they could only give me one verbally.
I was the first to report the suspicious quartering of the Armed Forces.
At two in the afternoon I was walking on my property to see the fish and I saw the tanks entering Plaza Murillo, at that moment I prepared a tweet calling for an indefinite general strike and blockade of national highways to defeat the coup d’état.
I kept walking and when I saw… The government minister caressing the tanks in Plaza Murillo.
What kind of coup is this? I am shocked. I keep looking at social media: the coup plotter enters the Palacio Quemado, talks to the president, a government minister with a military man, happy, laughing. It is in the images.
Do you think it was a self-coup?
I said, what is this? I began to doubt. And they (Luis Arce and General Juan José Zúñiga) talk and he (Zúñiga) leaves. He himself, General Zúñiga, said that Sunday “I was in a meeting playing basketball” with his friend (Arce).
Unfortunately, Arce did not respect seniority and institutionality when appointing (Zúñiga as commander of the Armed Forces).
Of the more than 60 officers who graduated, he was number 48. How can number 48 be a general and commander? I warned the Minister of Defense. I told him: “Minister, we must respect institutional seniority.” He told me: “No, loyalty comes before seniority” (…).
He (Zúñiga) believes himself to be the general of the people. Then he leaves and denounces that they had prepared with Lucho to improve his image (…). If it is not a coup or a self-coup, it is a well-staged show between Lucho and Zúñiga. We are already convinced (…). Everything shows that if it is not a coup, it is a self-coup.
But the truth is that the economy has been hit here. The dollar has skyrocketed, there has been total speculation. Private companies now do not want to invest. There is a lack of trust in international organisations, which is very serious, and this has never happened before.
Let it be investigated, let it be known, but it is well planned. Will it be to raise Lucho’s image? Will it be a real coup or an attempted coup? Or will it be a self-coup to make oneself a victim?
Most countries in the region supported President Arce after what happened. Do you think they are not well informed about what happened?
I see it as a diplomatic issue, for them to express solidarity. But look at another fact. In 2019, the promoter of the coup d’état: the OAS (Organization of American States).
At that time, the US embassy and (Donald) Trump applauded the coup d’état (…). I spoke with several colleagues. They are not going to say that it is not a coup, I repeat, for diplomatic reasons that they have to support.
https://twitter.com//evoespueblo/status/1806044752329986506
Many experts, including some from the Brazilian government (the largest buyer of natural gas produced in Bolivia) say that the drop in gas production in Bolivia is because the State has not made the necessary investments in recent years to maintain production. This is clearly something that goes against your administration. What happened to the investments in gas?
When we arrived in 2005, we were producing 30 million cubic meters of gas per day. I left an average production of at least 60 million cubic meters of gas.
Oil revenues during the neoliberal era were $3 billion, and under our administration: $40 billion. Obviously, I haven’t found another pocket of gas in the last two years.
It is true. Because we had not found any, I told the cabinet: look, if we have not found gas, it is because this is a non-renewable resource. Being totally dependent on a non-renewable natural resource is not good for the economy of any country in the world.
So I asked how are you going to replace that gas economy if we don’t find gas? And we have created the Ministry of Energy, to export energy, to sell energy, to Brazil, to Argentina, to other countries.
That was the plan I had. Lucho came to power and eliminated the Ministry of Energy. When I came to power, only 900 megawatts were produced, while domestic demand was 700 megawatts.
In 2019, 1,500 megawatts of demand and 3,200 megawatts of production capacity. My plan was to produce 9,000 megawatts for export.
Mr. President, many people, including you, say that there are international interests in the lithium reserves. You spoke of an alleged plan by the United States to divide the MAS. What evidence do you have of these international interests in lithium and the division of the Bolivian left?
The crime of the Bolivian people is to have so many natural resources on the ground in some cases: iron, lithium, hydrocarbons, rare earths… Natural resources continue to appear.
That is our crime. The United States, by manifest destiny, believes that it owns all the natural resources of the world. The United States thinks that by manifest destiny God sent them to be world policemen. That is the problem we have with the empire.
Countries that nationalize, that establish economic sovereignty, through the nationalization of natural resources, are already in the sights of the empire (…). The coup (of 2019) was not only against the gringo and the Indian, but against our economic model. With our economic model we showed that Bolivia has a lot of hope.
But it was fundamentally a blow to lithium. In other words, we started to industrialize lithium. We left a potassium chloride plant that generates 300 thousand tons a year, a pilot plant that generated a thousand tons of lithium carbonate. And now? Well, everything totally paralyzed (…).
Why do I say that we are in the sights of the empire? (…) The indigenous heritage movement is anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist.
People from the same political camp, seen as Marxists, recently clashed in the square. Do you feel responsible for the tense atmosphere in Bolivia?
Look, his colleagues have automatically mobilized when they heard that I have been invited (to a meeting at the Supreme Electoral Tribunal to discuss the end of the primary elections and the electoral calendar for 2025), but only public officials have taken to the streets (in support of Luis Arce).
Who provoked them? The government, removing its officials. They brought firecrackers, bazookas, tomatoes. The small team that I have infiltrated and was with them, listening.
And do you know what they said to a colleague? Those who did not come will be punished with pay and fines. I never did that, people mobilized voluntarily.
Agradecemos siempre a ese pueblo valeroso, al cual nos debemos, y como lo dijimos el día del golpe de Estado fallido: El pueblo boliviano nos puso aquí en Casa Grande, y el único que nos puede sacar es el propio pueblo.#NiCobardesNiTraidores#LosGolpistasNoPasarán pic.twitter.com/vXTLxC2Riv
— Luis Alberto Arce Catacora (Lucho Arce) (@LuchoXBolivia) July 13, 2024
But my question is, do you feel responsible for this tense atmosphere?
The government… How are they going to remove officials, attack activists? Please. Yesterday a minister lied. She said “ah, one person made the country electoral” (…). In 2021, they had been preparing a document called “2025-2030 Lucho President” all year long.
In January 2021, I received the document and I kept quiet, I didn’t say anything. But in September I told the president: “Listen, you are a presidential candidate. It is your right, but do a good job.”
Arce was about to be proclaimed candidate. I showed him the document and Lucho remained silent, scared, nervous.
But I don’t agree with what he says: “Evo is to the left of (Luis Fernando) Camacho, (Carlos) Mesa to the right and he in the middle.” It’s a rightward shift by Lucho. Who is the one who is electoralizing? The government, from the very beginning.
Do you fear that this division between “evistas” and “arcistas” could favor the right in the country?
Lucho is an addition that subtracts. If I had not drawn the line, like Lucho and the MAS, the MAS would have sunk just like Lucho. I saved the MAS. Who divides?
During my administration there was only one bench, now there are three divided benches. During my administration there was only one confederation, now there are divided confederations (…).
And don’t you think that’s because you want to be president of Bolivia again in the future?
I invite you on the 26th, 27th, 28th to have a plane to find out what the people are like and how they organize themselves. I know very well that, for my part, I saved Bolivia.
So here, for a political reason, for justice, the people want Evo to return to save Bolivia.
There are people who compare you to Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro for these successive attempts to stay in power. How do you respond to that?
Let’s see, Angela Merkel, how many years was she Prime Minister? How many years was she? And when you’re in power for eight or nine years, they question you. How is that? After the Second World War, you had to spend so many years to get your country back on its feet. Now I’m experiencing how important continuity is (…).
Please, we are talking about a discontinuous election. Like Lula, or what is happening in the United States.
But what do you think about these comparisons?
I believe in serving the Constitution. I respect that. For me, what would be better than having indefinite elections if there are results from that administration.
That’s why I talk about Germany, where Merkel was for 16 years, how she raised the country and made it the best in Europe.
Are you ready to compete in the primaries with Luis Arce?
I said that publicly. No problem, eh? Without primaries there is no democracy in the party. That’s why they are so important.
I am going to submit myself to the primary, if he wins I will campaign for him. If I win, he can campaign for me.
People in your sector classify President Luis Arce as a traitor. How do you classify him?
There are ideological, programmatic, and even ethical differences. So people see this as a betrayal. He has a policy of economic contraction, and when he arrived he eliminated four ministries.
Let’s see, let’s talk about the World Bank’s recipes, to reduce the State, a minimal State. This minimal State only regulates and does not invest. Lucho reduced four ministries (…) people protest. The one who is electoralizing is Lucho (…) That is what angers me the most.
(Editor’s note: In the middle of the interview, Morales shows a paper with a slide showing a graph with different names and their position in the Bolivian political spectrum.)
“On the left Evo Morales, on the right Luis Fernando Camacho and Carlos Mesa and in the middle Lucho. This is proof of the rightward drift of (Luis Arce). Lucho has drifted to the right.”
In South America there are now many right-wing governments, such as in Ecuador, Paraguay, Uruguay, and now in Argentina. Can this political division in the Bolivian left favour the right? And, on the other hand, why do you think the right is advancing in the region?
The best times for me have been the times of (Hugo) Chávez, (Rafael) Correa, (Néstor) Kirchner or Lula. We have made progress in the integration of South America, with Unasur. The right is returning, unfortunately, with some problems in some countries (…).
But why is the right advancing in South America?
But please, before there was no left (…) There are coups, judicial coups, lawfare. What happened with (Rafael) Correa? Imagine such a betrayal that is happening, that cold war.
Despite this, we are still in force. We continue in this fight, and here you either win or lose. Here the people decide their policies.
It is not clear to me where the left is failing to allow the right to advance in important countries such as Argentina, Ecuador, Paraguay and Uruguay, for example…
I don’t want to get too involved… Sometimes it is a problem. Argentina: inflation, inflation, inflation. That is a problem for each country.
But now, Argentines have just realized what it is like with the right or with the extreme right, with Milei (…). Each country has its own particularity.
Are you willing to go to the extreme with your candidacy?
It’s not Evo Morales, it’s the people. Yesterday I was surprised: at least 3,500 activists gathered in less than 24 hours.
They come from some departments like La Paz (…). Knowing my people, they will fight hard to recover the revolution and save our beloved Bolivia.
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